Father & Son Double Up

[Jetboatgreg]

congrats on the deer especially jr.

Your aging is a little off though...Jr's deer is a classic 1.5 year old with his first set of antlers.

Believe it or not...Your deer is more likely a really nice 2.5 year old with good genetics and food based on the mass of the rack and the size of the deer. Might be a 3.5 year old if you are hunting Far away from farm lands. but judging from the bases it looks like a nice 2.5 year old.

Your buck/doe ratio is also not correct by your calculations. If you saw 3 antlered buck within a group of 10 anterless deer your buck to doe ratio actually is pretty good and closer to the ideal range of 1 buck to 1 doe or 1:2.

You had 3 antlered buck with left 10 anterless deer. I am guessing that of the 10 "doe" you saw. 3 or 4 were mature doe. The rest were most likely this years fawns accompaning there mothers...So your adult doe to adult buck ratio is almost 1:1....but certainly in the ideal range.

If you take all the deer in the group and stricly take the buck to doe ratio it comes out pretty close to that as well...as you probably had b/n 2-4 button bucks in the group as well. So overall it sounds like your buck to doe ratio is pretty darn close to the 1:1 to 1:2 range that The qdma says is ideal.

Only way to truely tell is to have game cameras and get an actual survey which can be done. I know i used to "think" there were a lot less buck around my area until i got the game cameras. Now i am simply astounded at how many bucks there are actually out there and how many survive to the next years hunting season.

For instance..by my camera count i had b/m 21 and 24 different buck on our near our property. To my knowledge i only know 1 of which was killed....I have to assume a couple more got wacked but that still leaves the vast majority alive and kicking. I am pretty sure all of my big bucks made it through.

As for me....didnt see anything worthy this year of pulling the trigger or release on. But thats hunting. I did see enough deer though, just nothing big enough to shoot.

G

[Tearin' em up]

Thanks G!
I appreciate the insight, of course, however that being said, we know for sure that that 10 point was definitely 3.5 years old. We have been watching him that long. His first rack he was a nice "little" 8 pointer. Now that spiker my boy wacked, was a big deer for sure. A lot bigger than a first year buck's body. And, although the aging by the teeth is not an exact science, its close. The third set of molars were wore pretty good so originally I had wanted to age it out at 3.5, but then backed it off to 2.5 after a few "other" characteristics were taken into consideration. I would hesitate very much to say that that was that bucks first set of antlers. He was "trying to be a big boy with 4 points but the one really didn't develop and the "Y" at the top of the one tine was busted completely off. Unless this buck was eating rocks for most of his diet, he definitely had plenty of teeth wear to be a 2.5 year old. . .easily. Again, I realize its not an exact science, but I can get it really really close. Don't forget, I was going to do this for the rest of my life with the PGC until I actually worked for them!!! Then realized that I wanted NOTHING to do with that "organization"! I have alot of hours both in the classroom and in the field (more in the field than I like to admit! LOL--I think I may even have an addiction or something?) that have been dedicated to deer and turkey biology as a whole!
Now, the ratio you were calculating for me is good when you were only considering that one specific herd that that 10 pointer was in. Yes I understand the button buck thing and all, but you didn't take into consideration the other two BIG bucks and their herds of does. That big 9 point is running with 7 does and yes there are 3 yearlings with him. (1:4) and the big 11 point has himself usually about 6 does with him and for sure there are 2 yearlings within his group. (again 1:4) Not too sure whether those yearlings are button bucks or not, we just don't count them when doing the calculations for the property. Those herds were larger than that prior to the early muzzleloader season. Unfortunately, like I said before, guys usually surround the property and the outcome is never good. Several other little deer were killed and some of the others get killed one way or another. And yes, there was at least one other antlered buck for sure in that herd of 13. Again, deer were running everywhere when I shot, and I thought I had seen another antlered buck amongst them. Anyway, a long story short, that "bigger" herd is about a 1:3 ratio, but had a larger ratio prior to the muzzleloader preseason. And, those other bucks were not part of that big herd during archery for sure. I didn't say anything about the two large groups of does behind the big pond either. I would say that there are between 22 and 28 does back there. Probably a few bucks too, and some yearlings definitely. As a whole, the property averages a 1:4 maybe a 1:5 buck to doe ratio. I am hoping it creeps up just a little more than that like 1:6 or even a little higher. However, definitely don't want double digits like 1:10 or anything. That wouldn't be good at all. We are pretty happy right now with the way things are, just wish people that shoot does would be a little more observant of what they are shooting before pulling the trigger!!!

There are only 2 reasons as to why I shot that nice 3.5 year old (young) buck too, otherwise, I would have let him walk again this year. First, he was starting to "wander" a little further than we like/feel comfortable with. The farmer two farms down was seeing him and his herd on his farm. He has several guys that he allows to hunt on his property and if he could swing it, he would try and get his farm green tagged b/c he thinks there are way too many deer and they destroy his livelyhood. Oh well, thats just what he believes??? We put way too much time, energy, and money into trying to produce nice bucks and for him to go down there and just get wacked by some guy we don't even know isn't good or even worse, the farmer just start shooting when they come out in his fields to graze. Secondly, and probably most importantly, I wanted to kill a buck in the same hunting year/season as my son did!!! Once I finish the European mount for this one, we are going to take a picture that will last him and I our lifetime. Its all about the good times and memories!!! Thats why hunting in general is so great!

Thanks again for everyones input and really appreciate the congrats from you all. This board is a really good place that someone can just be themselves and its not frowned upon but encouraged and welcomed. Plus, some of the discussions are fabulous along with the information passed around just can't be beat! There are alot of people here that are wealths of knowledge and just wanted to personally say "Thanks to you all!" Now, who's ready to tear up some smallies???

[Tearin' em up]

Greg,

You seem like an extremely knowledgeable guy, especially with deer and deer management! I think you would be awesome to sit around the fire back on the farm and drink some beer with and shoot the $hit with!!! And for as picky as you are with pulling the trigger, me and the boys would welcome someone like yourself to the farm. Of course, once you come to realize what you had gotten yourself into there in the mountains of western PA, you may just run faster than Forest Gump??? LMAO! Just kiddin, those brothers of mine aren't as bad as I make them out to be, but what happens in western PA has to stay there otherwise no one here would ever talk to me again!!! Just thought Id throw that out there to ya G! Hope we can meet some day. Thanks again for all the insight with everything.

[Jetboatgreg]

Teethwear is proven not to be a good indicator as once thought of age. Those aging plaques you get arent really worth much for accuracy. For exact age you have to look at the teeth under a microscope similiar to looking at tree rings. The deer your son killed was no doubt a 1.5 year old buck. If your deer is 3.5 and you said its first set of antlers was a small 8 then what was it last year?

Here is a classic example of a PA 1.5 year old deer..especially in the mountains where we hunt.



Here is a 3.5 year old 8 point...not the width at the bases...


Here is the same buck at 2.5 years....skinny rack with the same shape.. hard to tell with the velvet..but you can get an idea of the "thin horns"



Here is a "shooter".........this deer is either 5.5 or 6.5 years old.


He had about the same rack size as last year. I am guessing last year he was 5.5 do to the mass. I have never seen this deer with a weapon in my hand. I have only actually seen him once when i was cking my camera in mid june. At that bulbing going to an 8.



The other thing you have to take into consideration on Sex ratios...is how many bucks are actually out there that you are not seeing...do you own game cameras? I would expect there are quite a few bucks running around you have no idea about. Usually after the rut they become solitary again and do not run around with pack of does.


It actually sounds like you would be a good candidate for a QDMA subscription.

[Tearin' em up]

Hey Greg,

Yes I know very well about the aging process and that teeth wear aren't a "good" technique but only a "close" estimate of age. With that being said, I agree completely about that deer in your photo as being a 1.5 yo, and you can tell that with a few "other" of the characteristics that little buck is exhibiting. I hunt in the mountains as well, in fact the property is at the top of the eastern continental divide that runs through PA. So "mountain bucks" aren't anything new to me either Greg, like yourself. Now that pic I posted wasn't a very good pic and doesn't do the buck justice for what he is. I just posted that one b/c it was a "nicer" pic. That buck was definitely sporting his 3rd set of antlers. Thats also how we know for sure that the two other BIG bucks on the property are only 2.5 yo as well. That spike my son shot had a lot more mass than that little guy you had on cam, Greg, and he didn't have that "baby face" that those young bucks have. Guaranteed 2.5 yo!!! Again, we could discuss this over an open fire and a few beverages of choice probably for a few hours!!! At least until I got my microscope out and took a tooth sample!!!

I was being sarcastic as well Greg when I said about that 10 pointers first rack being "little" his first year. Yes he was thinner and maybe an inch less wide, but alot of guys in PA would have put him on the wall with his first rack! That is a nice buck you have there in your last photo, but I would venture that he is only 4.5 yo, unless you are assurring me you have watched him develop since he was a youngling and can verify his age. I only say this b/c nearly all the time at 5.5 yo, bucks develop the arch/hump in the lower back and into the top of the rump. That buck doesn't have an arch nor the hump in his rear, although he is extremely nice, and again, guys would surely put him on the wall!

I do agree with you on the "other" bucks running around the property and like yourself, we use alot of trail cams around the feeders and hotspots. We get a pretty good survey of the population but I know we don't get them all. However, a good manager only manages what he is sure of and not estimate. This estimation is a lot of what the PGC does, and its wrong!!! Like I said, our known ratio is about 1:5 on the property, and yes probably/maybe a "little" lower and that is one reason I want it to get a little higher. I would like to get it up around 1:7 even 1:8 specifically on the deer population that I "know" is there. Then, we can take it from there. Its alot easier to drop your ratio than it is to raise it up!!!

I appreciate all your insight and knowledge Greg! You definitely know what you are talking about as well! Im sure your property is doing well just as ours is. Too bad you didn't get to see that big boy with a weapon in your hand!!! Would have liked to see a "close up" of him!!! Up close and personal! Once again, this has been a GREAT conversation! Thanks!